Comments on: The Impossible Kingdom http://cippenhambaptistchurch.com/blog/2009/03/29/the-impossible-kingdom/ Welcome to our Website Sun, 08 Jan 2012 06:12:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Robin http://cippenhambaptistchurch.com/blog/2009/03/29/the-impossible-kingdom/comment-page-1/#comment-678 Robin Wed, 08 Apr 2009 23:47:35 +0000 http://cippenhambaptistchurch.com/?p=483#comment-678 If "Kingdom of God" means "how it is when God is in charge" then I think without a doubt Jesus was trying to show that God wants to work at ordinary grass-roots level and not in religious structures and hierarchy. I think Jesus used the word "sinner" only as a jibe against the self-righteous who classed themselves as superior to others. I think he did value community, though I don't know if he would have stressed the word "natural" - which seems to imply that there's nothing greater. I think he came to call ordinary people to find greater things together as they get a new view of God as a friend and an enabler and a devolver of his own power to them. But where and how do you do that? If you were hearing Jesus for the first time and trying to "do the kingdom" what on earth would lead you to set up the sort of programmed structure that we now call "church"? You would surely be working at the "ordinary" level of small-community (or groups) purposefully trying to help each other and help others to find Jesus. You might well develop little (or even large) projects as you went along, but the danger is when the demands of the project take up all the available time and energy and it becomes either the thing that must be serviced come what may, or a substitute for true spirituality. Then it will lose its spiritual meaning and the workers will spiritually die of exhaustion. Their only consolation will be that they were "faithful to the project" - and that's a deadly deception. But in my opinion it's an often-found reality in "church" life. The knowledge of God is scanty, devotion to God is superficial, and all our identity rests in the organisation and the program: that's what we "are". We are satisfied with exhausting ourselves instead of finding refreshing and life in Jesus. If “Kingdom of God” means “how it is when God is in charge” then I think without a doubt Jesus was trying to show that God wants to work at ordinary grass-roots level and not in religious structures and hierarchy. I think Jesus used the word “sinner” only as a jibe against the self-righteous who classed themselves as superior to others. I think he did value community, though I don’t know if he would have stressed the word “natural” – which seems to imply that there’s nothing greater. I think he came to call ordinary people to find greater things together as they get a new view of God as a friend and an enabler and a devolver of his own power to them. But where and how do you do that? If you were hearing Jesus for the first time and trying to “do the kingdom” what on earth would lead you to set up the sort of programmed structure that we now call “church”? You would surely be working at the “ordinary” level of small-community (or groups) purposefully trying to help each other and help others to find Jesus. You might well develop little (or even large) projects as you went along, but the danger is when the demands of the project take up all the available time and energy and it becomes either the thing that must be serviced come what may, or a substitute for true spirituality. Then it will lose its spiritual meaning and the workers will spiritually die of exhaustion. Their only consolation will be that they were “faithful to the project” – and that’s a deadly deception. But in my opinion it’s an often-found reality in “church” life. The knowledge of God is scanty, devotion to God is superficial, and all our identity rests in the organisation and the program: that’s what we “are”. We are satisfied with exhausting ourselves instead of finding refreshing and life in Jesus.

]]> By: Ashley http://cippenhambaptistchurch.com/blog/2009/03/29/the-impossible-kingdom/comment-page-1/#comment-608 Ashley Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:59:43 +0000 http://cippenhambaptistchurch.com/?p=483#comment-608 My short answer is that God's Kingdom (a la Jesus) as you put it only exists within an established religious system. Similarly the old testament kingdom conflict analogy is only relevant today to church people, there is a very limited audience. You could say that much of Jesus preching focused on the relevance of the "ordinary life" and the embracing of it. Perhaps you could say that the Jewish way was one of denial, pushing "sin" aside as if it didn't exist, wheres Jesus method was to face it head on, spending time with "sinners". My opinion is that the church programme and "religious activity" isn't the enemy. Yes a lot of time is spent doing these things, but is that really at the expense of more "core" activities? I see these things as a platform of activity upon which these "core" things can be placed. It's people being together, the first instinct of community and fellowship. It's this natural communal activity that makes me think that it's as much "core" as the other things mentioned, if not more so. Just being normal together and not engaging in any specific spiritual or upbuilding activity is as vital as eating and sleeping in my mind. For me it doesn't have to be about conflict, and the analogy doesn't really stand. Would our Sunday Service really have caused Jesus to have the same reaction as the hypocrisy of the Jews? Yes there needs to be more prayer, more open worship, and better understanding between Christians, but are these other activities really an obstacle? My short answer is that God’s Kingdom (a la Jesus) as you put it only exists within an established religious system. Similarly the old testament kingdom conflict analogy is only relevant today to church people, there is a very limited audience.

You could say that much of Jesus preching focused on the relevance of the “ordinary life” and the embracing of it. Perhaps you could say that the Jewish way was one of denial, pushing “sin” aside as if it didn’t exist, wheres Jesus method was to face it head on, spending time with “sinners”.

My opinion is that the church programme and “religious activity” isn’t the enemy. Yes a lot of time is spent doing these things, but is that really at the expense of more “core” activities? I see these things as a platform of activity upon which these “core” things can be placed. It’s people being together, the first instinct of community and fellowship.

It’s this natural communal activity that makes me think that it’s as much “core” as the other things mentioned, if not more so. Just being normal together and not engaging in any specific spiritual or upbuilding activity is as vital as eating and sleeping in my mind.

For me it doesn’t have to be about conflict, and the analogy doesn’t really stand. Would our Sunday Service really have caused Jesus to have the same reaction as the hypocrisy of the Jews? Yes there needs to be more prayer, more open worship, and better understanding between Christians, but are these other activities really an obstacle?

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